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pd18oc04 Remarks in Paradise Valley, Arizona...

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to put 100,000 cops on the streets of America. I've been for faith-based 
initiatives helping to intervene in the lives of young children for 
years. I was--broke with my party in 1985, one of the first three 
Democrats to fight for a balanced budget when it was heresy. Labels 
don't fit, ladies and gentlemen.
    Now, when it comes to the issue of the environment, this is one of 
the worst administrations in modern history. The Clear Skies bill that 
he just talked about--it's one of those Orwellian names you pull out of 
the sky, slap it onto something--like No Child Left Behind, but you 
leave millions of children behind. Here they're leaving the skies and 
the environment behind.
    If they just left the Clean Air Act all alone the way it is today, 
no change, the air would be cleaner than it is if you pass the cleaner 
skies act. We're going backwards. In fact, his environmental enforcement 
chief air quality person at the EPA resigned in protest over what 
they're doing to what are called the New Source Performance Standards 
for air quality. They're going backwards on the definition for wetlands. 
They're going backwards on the water quality. They pulled out of the 
global warming, declared it dead; didn't even accept the science. I'm 
going to be a President who believes in science.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President?
    President Bush. Well, had we joined the Kyoto treaty, which I guess 
he's referring to, it would have cost America a lot of jobs. It's one of 
these deals where in order to be popular in the halls of Europe, you 
sign a treaty. But I thought it would cost a lot of--I think there's a 
better way to do it. And I just told you the facts, sir. The quality of 
the air is cleaner since I've been the President of the United States. 
And we'll continue to spend money on research and development because I 
truly believe that's the way to get from how we live today to being able 
to live a standard of living that we're accustomed to and being able to 
protect our environment better--the use of technologies.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, 30 seconds.
    Senator Kerry. The fact is that the Kyoto treaty was flawed. I was 
in Kyoto, and I was part of that. I know what happened. But this 
President didn't try to fix it. He just declared it dead, ladies and 
gentlemen, and we walked away from the work of 160 nations over 10

[[Page 2304]]

years. You wonder, Nikki, why it is that people don't like us in some 
parts of the world. You just say, ``Hey, we don't agree with you. 
Goodbye.'' The President has done nothing to try to fix it. I will.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next question is for you. It involves 
jobs, which is a topic in the news today. And for the question, we're 
going to turn to Jane Barrow.

Trade Competitiveness/Jobs/Taxes

    Jane Barrow. Senator Kerry, how can the U.S. be competitive in a 
manufacturing given----in manufacturing, excuse me, given the wage 
necessary and comfortably accepted for American workers to maintain the 
standard of living that they expect?
    Senator Kerry. Jane, there are a lot of ways to be competitive. And 
unfortunately, again, I regret, this administration has not seized them 
and embraced them. Let me give you an example. There's a tax loophole 
right now--if you're a company in St. Louis working, trying to make jobs 
here, there's actually an incentive for you to go away. You get more 
money--you can keep more of your taxes by going abroad. I'm going to 
shut that loophole, and I'm going to give the tax benefit to the 
companies that stay here in America to help make them more competitive.
    Secondly, we're going to create a manufacturing jobs credit and a 
new jobs credit for people to be able to help hire and be more 
competitive here in America.
    Third, what's really hurting American business, more than anything 
else, is the cost of health care. Now, you didn't hear any plan from the 
President, because he doesn't have a plan to lower the cost of health 
care. Five million Americans have lost their health care; 620,000 
Missourians have no health care at all; 96,000 Missourians have lost 
their health care under President Bush.
    I have a plan to cover those folks, and it's a plan that lowers 
costs for everybody, covers all children. And the way I pay for it--I'm 
not fiscally irresponsible--is I roll back the tax cut that this 
President so fiercely wants to defend, the one for him and me and 
Charlie. I think you ought to get the break. I want to lower your cost 
of health care.
    I want to fully fund education, No Child Left Behind, special needs 
education. And that's how we're going to be more competitive, by making 
sure our kids are graduating from school and college. China and India 
are graduating more graduates in technology and science than we are. 
We've got to create the products of the future.
    That's why I have a plan for energy independence within 10 years. 
And we're going to put our laboratories and our colleges and 
universities to work, and we're going to get the great entrepreneurial 
spirit of this country, and we're going to free ourselves from this 
dependency on Mideast oil. That's how you create jobs and become 
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, minute and a half.
    President Bush. Let me start with how to control the costs of health 
care: Medical liability reform, for starters, which he's opposed. 
Secondly, allow small businesses to pool together so they can share risk 
and buy insurance at the same discounts big businesses get to do. 
Thirdly, spread what's called health savings accounts. It's good for 
small businesses, good for owners. You own your own account. You can 
save tax-free. You get a catastrophic plan to help you--own it. This is 
different from saying, ``Okay, let me incent you to go on the 
    He's talking about his plan to keep jobs here. You know, he calls it 
an outsourcing--to keep--stop outsourcing. Robert Rubin looked at his 
plan and said it won't work. The best way to keep jobs here in America 
is, one, have an energy plan. I proposed one to the Congress 2 years 
ago. It encourages conservation, encourages technology to explore for 
environmentally friendly ways for coal and use coal and gas. It 
encourages the use of renewables like ethanol and biodiesel. It's stuck 
in the Senate. He and his runningmate didn't show up to vote when they 
could have got it going in the Senate. Less regulations if we want jobs 
here. Legal reform if we want jobs here. And we've got to keep taxes 
    Now, he says he's only going to tax the rich. Do you realize 900,000 
small businesses will be taxed under his plan because most small 
businesses are Subchapter S corps or limited partnerships, and they pay 
tax at the individual income-tax level. And so when you're running up 
the taxes like that, you're

[[Page 2305]]

taxing job creators, and that's not how you keep jobs here.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator, I want to extend for a minute. You talk about 
tax credits to stop outsourcing. But when you have IBM documents that I 
saw recently, where you can hire a programmer for $12 in China, $56 an 
hour here, tax credits won't cut it in that area.
    Senator Kerry. You can't stop all outsourcing, Charlie. I've never 
promised that. I'm not going to, because that would be pandering. You 
can't. But what you can do is create a fair playing field, and that's 
what I'm talking about.
    But let me just address what the President just said. Ladies and 
gentlemen, that's just not true, what he said. The Wall Street Journal 
said 96 percent of small businesses are not affected at all by my plan. 
And you know why he gets that count? The President got $84 from a timber 
company that he owns, and he's counted as a small business. Dick Cheney 
is counted as a small business. That's how they do things. That's just 
not right.
    President Bush. I own a timber company? That's news to me. 
[Laughter] Need some wood? [Laughter]
    Most small businesses are Subchapter S corps. They just are. I met 
Grant Milliron, Mansfield, Ohio. He's creating jobs. Most small 
businesses--70 percent of the new jobs in America are created by small 
business. His taxes are going up when you run up the top two brackets. 
It's a fact.
    Mr. Gibson. President Bush, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from Rob Fowler, who I believe is over in this area.


    Rob Fowler. President Bush, 45 days after 9/11, Congress passed the 
PATRIOT Act, which takes away checks on law enforcement and weakens 
American citizens' rights and freedoms, especially Fourth Amendment 
rights. With expansions of the PATRIOT Act and PATRIOT Act II, my 
question to you is, why are my rights being watered down and my citizens 
around me, and what are the specific justifications for these reforms?
    President Bush. Yes, I appreciate that. I really don't think your 
rights are being watered down. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't support 
it if I thought that. Every action being taken against terrorists 
requires a court order, requires scrutiny. As a matter of fact, the 
tools now given to the terrorist fighters are the same tools that we've 
been using against drug dealers and white-collar criminals. So I really 
don't think so. I hope you don't think that. I mean, I--because I think 
whoever is the President must guard your liberties, must not erode your 
rights in America.
    The PATRIOT Act is necessary, for example, because parts of the FBI 
couldn't talk to each other. Intelligence gathering and the law 
enforcement arms of the FBI just couldn't share intelligence under the 
old law, and that didn't make any sense. Our law enforcement must have 
every tool necessary to find and disrupt terrorists at home and abroad 
before they hurt us again. That's the task of the 21st century.
    And so I don't think the PATRIOT Act abridges your rights at all, 
and I know it's necessary. I can remember being in upstate New York 
talking to FBI agents that helped bust the Lackawanna cell up there. And 
they told me they could not have performed their duty, the duty we all 
expect of them, if they did not have the ability to communicate with 
each other under the PATRIOT Act.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, a minute and a half.
    Senator Kerry. Former Governor Racicot, as chairman of the 
Republican Party, said he thought that the PATRIOT Act has to be changed 
and fixed. Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner--he's the chairman of the House 
Judiciary Committee--has said over his dead body before it gets renewed 
without being thoroughly rechecked. Whole bunch of folks in America 
concerned about the way the PATRIOT Act has been applied.
    In fact, the Inspector General of the Justice Department found that 
John Ashcroft had twice applied it in ways that were inappropriate. 
People's rights have been abused. I met a man who spent 8 months in 
prison, wasn't even allowed to call his lawyer, wasn't allowed to--
finally, Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois intervened and was able to get 
him out. This is in our country, folks, the United States of America. 
They've got sneak-and-peak searches that are allowed. They've got people 
allowed to go into churches now and

[[Page 2306]]

political meetings, without any showing of potential criminal activity 
or otherwise.
    Now, I voted for the PATRIOT Act. Ninety-nine United States Senators 
voted for it. And the President has been very busy running around the 
country using what I just described to you as a reason to say I'm wishy-
washy, that I'm a flip-flopper. Now, that's not a flip-flop. I believe 
in the PATRIOT Act. We need the things in it that coordinate the FBI and 
the CIA. We need to be stronger on terrorism. But you know what we also 
need to do as Americans is never let the terrorists change the 
Constitution of the United States in a way that disadvantages our 
    Mr. Gibson. Senator Kerry, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from Elizabeth Long.

Embryonic Stem Cell Research

    Elizabeth Long. Senator Kerry, thousands of people have already been 
cured or treated by the use of adult stem cells or umbilical cord stem 
cells. However, no one has been cured by using embryonic stem cells. 
Wouldn't it be wise to use stem cells obtained without the destruction 
of an embryo?
    Senator Kerry. You know, Elizabeth, I really respect your--the 
feeling that's in your question. I understand it. I know the morality 
that's prompting that question, and I respect it enormously. But like 
Nancy Reagan and so many other people--you know, I was at a forum with 
Michael J. Fox the other day in New Hampshire, who's suffering from 
Parkinson's, and he wants us to do stem cell--embryonic stem cell. And 
this fellow stood up, and he was quivering. His whole body was shaking 
from the nerve disease, the muscular disease that he had, and he said to 
me and to the whole hall, he said, you know, ``Don't take away my hope 
because my hope is what keeps me going.'' Chris Reeve is a friend of 
mine. Chris Reeve exercises every single day to keep those muscles alive 
for the day when he believes he can walk again, and I want him to walk 
    I think we can save lives. Now, I think we can do ethically guided 
embryonic stem cell research. We have 100,000 to 200,000 embryos that 
are frozen in nitrogen today from fertility clinics. These weren't taken 
from abortion or something like that. They're from a fertility clinic, 
and they're either going to be destroyed or left frozen. And I believe 
if we have the option, which scientists tell us we do, of curing 
Parkinson's, curing diabetes, curing some kind of a paraplegic or 
quadriplegic or a spinal cord injury, anything--that's the nature of the 
human spirit. I think it is respecting life to reach for that cure. I 
think it is respecting life to do it in an ethical way.
    And the President's chosen a policy that makes it impossible for our 
scientists to do that. I want the future, and I think we have to grab 
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, a minute and a half.
    President Bush. Embryonic stem cell research requires the 
destruction of life to create a stem cell. I'm the first President ever 
to allow funding, Federal funding, for embryonic stem cell research. I 
did so because I too hope that we'll discover cures from the stem cells 
and from the research derived.
    But I think we've got to be very careful in balancing the ethics and 
the science. And so I made the decision we wouldn't spend any more money 
beyond the 70 lines, 22 of which are now in action, because science is 
important but so is ethics, so is balancing life. To destroy life to 
save life is one of the real ethical dilemmas that we face.
    There is going to be hundreds of experiments off the 22 lines that 
now exist, that are active, and hopefully we find a cure. But as well we 
need to continue to pursue adult stem cell research. I helped double the 
NIH budget to $28 billion a year to find cures. And the approach I took 
is one that I think is a balanced and necessary approach, to balance 
science and the concerns for life.
    Mr. Gibson. Senator, thirty seconds, let's extend.
    Senator Kerry. When you talk about walking a waffle line, he says 
he's allowed it, which means he's going to allow the destruction of life 
up to a certain amount, and then he isn't going to allow it. Now, I 
don't know how you draw that line. But let me tell you pointblank, the 
lines of stem cells that he's made available, every scientist in the 
country will tell you, ``Not adequate,'' because they're contaminated by 
mouse cells and because there aren't 60 or 70; there are

[[Page 2307]]

only about 11 to 20 now, and there aren't enough to be able to do the 
research because they're contaminated.
    We've got to open up the possibilities of this research. And when I 
am President, I'm going to do it, because we have to.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President.
    President Bush. Let me make sure you understand my decision. Those 
stem cell lines already existed. The embryo had already been destroyed 
prior to my decision. I had to make the decision: Do we destroy more 
life; do we continue to destroy life? I made the decision to balance 
science and ethics.
    Mr. Gibson. Mr. President, the next question is for you, and it 
comes from Jonathan Michaelson.

Supreme Court

    Jonathan Michaelson. Mr. President, if there were a vacancy in the 
Supreme Court and you had the opportunity to fill that position today, 
who would you choose, and why?
    President Bush. I'm not telling. [Laughter] I really don't have--I 
haven't picked anybody yet. Plus, I want them all voting for me. 
[Laughter] I would pick somebody who would not allow their personal 
opinion to get in the way of the law. I would pick somebody who would 
strictly interpret the Constitution of the United States.
    Let me give you a couple of examples, I guess, of the kind of person 
I wouldn't pick. I wouldn't pick a judge who said that the Pledge of 
Allegiance couldn't be said in a school because it had the words ``under 
God'' in it. I think that's an example of a judge allowing personal 
opinion to enter into the decisionmaking process, as opposed to strict 
interpretation of the Constitution.
    Another example would be the Dred Scott case, which is where judges 
years ago said that the Constitution allowed slavery because of personal 
property rights. That's personal opinion. That's not what the 
Constitution says. The Constitution of the United States says we're 
all--it doesn't say that. It doesn't speak to the equality of America.
    And so I would pick people that would be strict constructionists. 
We've got plenty of lawmakers in Washington, DC. Legislators make law. 
Judges interpret the Constitution. And I suspect one of us will have a 

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